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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys as some of you already know GPRacerX set me up with EFI and E85 fuel and since I had some trans issues I pulled the motor down to repair and rebuild the crank and look here at these pistons. These pistons have been in the motor for 3 seasons with nothing more than an o-ring replacement in the head and that is it. The E85 burn the carbon right off of the pistons, these things look almost new.

So to those non-believers out there E85 is a good fuel to use IMO.



 

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Looks good...however, a few questions.

Cost of EFI setup, etc.
Where does spending the dough for an EFI balance out with performance, etc., from pump fuel, etc.

I'd be interested to see how this motor performed before on pump fuel with carbs compared to EFI and E85.

Don't get me wrong Lobo, I'm very impressed with what you and Kevin are working on, just want to see comparisons, that's all!!

Nice work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
thnik about how much you have into an Alky carb setup, plus the pump and other items that go with it and I will be willing to bet that there is less cost difference than you might think.

As far as power and tuning my carb setup was a set of 35MM AirStryker Carbs on Race Fuel 110 Octane at 10 bucks a gallon and the motor ran good and made 85 to the wheels. My motor cannot run on pump gas. The compression is too high so I can't see the pump gas comparison. I don't have the Dyno sheets from my old runs with the race fuel and Kevin has the others with the E85. It is understandable that some people will be skeptical of something new but the E85 seems to be working quite well and has outperformed my expectations by leaps and bounds.

Now with the EFI the power was 92 to the wheels and the fuel cost me less than 2 bucks a gallon. I have burnt 30 gallons this season already and it has saved me roughly 250 bucks this year so far. At this rate and figure the 1200 to 1300 cost of the EFI it will pay for itself I am figuring by September depending on my ride time.

You say you want comparisons, so let us know what you would like to see. I can tell you that from riding it ( and that is all that matters to me) it runs so much better. The throttle response is linear and smooth and the power is phenomenal. It is only 5-8 more that what I was at but it is so much smoother from the Fuel Injection atomization properties. Last weekend I screwed up the TPS (user error) and it was telling the computer that it was at half throttle when at idle and it never once fouled a plug. It still ran all weekend ( albeit not as good) and I never had a problem with it being reliable as usual.
 

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If you already have the carbs, IF a pump is needed, you're only talking 100 to 130 bucks for PJs and a fuel pump.

I was more interested in what kind of power gains would be realized, I'm certain a linear...smoother power band would be realized.

I'd like to see the cost of it, A to Z as well as a before and after dyno (I know you can't get this, I gotcha...would've been nice to see is all. )

Have you guys thought about the next step, a turbo with efi? Turbos make BIG power on these bikes, but as anyone will tell you, they are finicky as all hell. 10 degrees change in temps, time to retune the whole bike.

EFI could definitely curb that!

Would you agree E85 as a performance fuel is in between gas (pump or race) and full on pure methanol?

Do you have to purge the bike, as with pure methanol.

Sorry for all the questions, but I've followed this for a bit...and it is very interesting!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I had figured it from time of inception. if you figure the cost of good set of carbs, mods for alky (since that is my assumption of most guys on here run) pump, tuning time and such there, IMO, is not enough difference to keep from doing the EFI. Only problem is Kevin needs the motor or bike to tune it. There isn't a one size fits all tuning map.

As for power gains Kevin said, and proved with my motor, that you gain around 3-5% power gains with the E85. We gained a few more than that on mine but for an average 3-5 is about right.

As for Turbo's it is no problem from my understanding. Kevin has done turbo's before with great success.

E85 as a performance fuel??? I would say yes in my case since I went from race fuel to E85 and kept my high compression. It probably doesn't peform like pure alky but it does the job. another benefit I have seen is the lack of heat in the engine. My engine runs 20-30 degree's cooler with the E85.


We had thought that purging would not need to be done if the bike was ridden on a weekly basis but after tearing it down I found some small signs of rust on the cylinder walls and pistons so with the bike torn down I am going to set it up with a simple purge system that only requires me to flip a valve and have a can of regular fuel around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think Kevin has a drag chassis that he is building with a 500+ cheetah and E85 EFI setup but it is a work in progress.

The exact weight I have no idea. The battery we used in mine is 4.1 lbs and the computer is maybe 1-2 lbs plus wiring, then the fuel pump. But in a MX Dune Chassis I was not worried about weight.

For a drag bike and minimal run time you do, you could get away with a much smaller battery. The charging system is nothing more than a 200 watt stator with the ground floated and a voltage rectifier/regulator. You can wire it where if the battery drops off the stator will pick up the load and run the fuel pump and computer(although not recommended).
 

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I think rather than thinking about a turbo dave, you should be thinking about nitrous. An EFI system would make an alcohol to nitrous transition effortlessly.

You also have to consider the non-monetary benefits like...what is it worth to you to not have to tune your carbs or adjust for temperature changes...

They are cool systems, but unless you have a guy like Kevin to help you out...forget about it. I have a custom efi system on my turbo sandrail, and they sure can be a [censored] without the right tuner.
 

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I've seen lobos setup and it's sweet and good running.
Another thing you didnt mention is the throttle bodies with EFI is able to use huge throttle bodies like say 48mms instead of smaller carbs and still have good throttle response.
They also didnt advance the timing or do any other tuning other than the injection and E85. Once again props to Kevin and you too Lobo for trying out a system noone else is really running. Theres a lot of people who have $600-700 in carbs and $100-$150 in a pump or bowls etc and would prolly pay the other $500-800 to have 10 more hp out of the 48mm Throttle bodys that flow like 50mm carbs. Especially the big high $ motors I think would gain more.
Or, can you imagine a nitro setup that can inject enough fuel without leaning out to possibly make a 125-160 HP... 4 mill cub, or a 120 hp 350???. Unlike carbs which cant get enough fuel thru em. It'll be here someday I think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
1000 in carbs is exactly what I was talking about. By the time you have them tuned and installed you could spend a few hundred more and have the benefits of EFI. No tuning from the morning runs to the afternoon runs and it is spot on every time.

I swear by the EFI and if you ask Kevin I have been bugging him for years to set me up but we just never had the oportunity to do so. But now after it is done it is well worth the wait.

The problem I have now is ( you all probably already been through this) is I have destroyed my clutch basket and gears since I am still running the stock primary's. I am going to have to move to straight cut gears. I think the trans bearing going bad was caused by too much side load and torque on the trans input shaft and second gear was trying to seize to the shaft. I guess when you start making this much HP and torque it takes its toll on things.

This motor that I just disassembled has been together for 7 years with only 2 sets of pistons and regular oil changes. Now how many of you can say you are making that much power and have been running the same setup for 7 years? I just hope after the rebuild it lasts that long again.

All I can say is if you can do it and have the patience to become familiar with the setup and understand how it works ( so you can troubleshoot if necessary) it is definitely worth the coin and extra weight on the bike. Tuned right you can gain alot of midrange to offset the weight gain. I would love to see you guys embrace this technology.
 

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alky and e 85 will create a very clean motor.. specs and measurements are what determine wear on an engine.. i just switched my 700 raptor over from gas to e85 it runs pretty good it was easy to do with the injection adjustments through the fuel controller.

e-85 can be ran with alky carbs but i think there would be a different needle needed for lectrons the alky needle cannot get lean enough with the amount of fuel thats mixed with e-85 and you still need an alky specific oil. i never played with it on the last set of kehiens i have, its leaner than pump gas, and richer than straight methanol/ allky ( what i mean is the fuel air ratio)

what amount of hours were on the motor ?


e85 if a fun fuel to play with its not as harsh as straight alky and pretty cheap and i would consider it a "pump" gas.. has gains in hp and smells funny also.. ( like roasted corn..)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hours???? I have no idea. I would venture to say 100+ hours. It has been to Glamis twice since i owned it, several flat track races, multiple trips to Waynoka, and a $hit ton of dyno runs. It was essentially new when I bought it in Jan 2005 but the motor was built a few years prior to that but never ridden. Oh and it also won the 2005 Pikes Peak Hill Climb. This was the motor John Stallworth rode that year after I wrecked in practice and he seized both his motors so we removed mine (cub cylinder at the time) and installed in his bike and he rode it to win the 2005 title.
 

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so what cylinder is on it now? its got a different top end but its still the same motor?

really it dosent matter so dont take this the wrong way i am just saying meth, alky, e85 ethanol all runs clean inside the motor and converting a gas motor to those fuels will be really clean.. its neat.. measure the pistons and you will be suprised on the wear on them.
 

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The turbo ktm 525 that's done now is on E85 that kevin did and it doesnt detonate on E85 at 10 lbs or even 15 lbs of boost.Pretty impressive bike 82hp at 10lbs of boost and 101hp at 15 lbs all on a bone stock motor cam piston etc and hasn't blown a head gasket yet knock on wood.
 

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QUOTE (Radar @ Jun 16 2009, 11:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=46807The turbo ktm 525 that's done now is on E85 that kevin did and it doesnt detonate on E85 at 10 lbs or even 15 lbs of boost.Pretty impressive bike 82hp at 10lbs of boost and 101hp at 15 lbs all on a bone stock motor cam piston etc and hasn't blown a head gasket yet knock on wood.

Vids or pics of this
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Stock Cylinder with Blaster Pistons. 67.25MM bore right now going to 67.50. The bottom end has been together for roughly 6-7 years.
 
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