[JP374]

Is there a way to tell over gas.... i know with alky doesnt it omit damp vapor out pipes?? If it were tuned properly is there a way you could run it it undetected?? We have a guy who is suspected of running alky at our local track with the guys running gas, Just wondering if its possible? I looked over his setup he has a psi big bowled carb (gold anodized)with P/J in it and a dual feed pingel. He told me he could run alky or gas with this carb and all he has to do is drain the gas and run alky.... I have never heard of such a thing.

 

[conig]

it might be how he is defining alcohol i can do the same thing with alittle adjustment on my bike it loads up down low but unless I can't clear it out or ride part throttle alot it will run on gas(anything under 1/4 throttle i have to keep it going) I however run e85 and that should be able to run in pump gas superstock classes imo (just my opinion it comes from the local station is how i define pump).

best way to tell is a hydrometer it also smells different then gas but that could be hidden with scents and all the different 2 stroke oils.

if the track really wants to enforce it and have a good track they should have a hydrometer on hand. thats the only true way.

 

[koolguyson]

It is pretty easy to check if the guy is running methanol. The best way is to just smell his exhaust. If it burns your eyes/nose when you get a good whiff of it, then you know it isn't gas. You can also smell his gas and it will do the same thing. A powerjet is a pretty obvious indication too as they aren't really needed for gas, but it isn't a definite answer. THe PSI carbs come with powerjets already installed on them. A fuel pump is also another way to check.

 

[Backcountry]

Hydrometer is the about the only for certain way to test for methanol. Even then there are methods/products to hide power additives.

Smell is my biggest indicator...

 

[JP374]

QUOTE (Backcountry @ Sep 22 2008, 02:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11301Hydrometer is the about the only for certain way to test for methanol. Even then there are methods/products to hide power additives.

Smell is my biggest indicator...
Where can you get a hydrometer? How much are they?

 

[Backcountry]

$15

mcmaster.com

 

[conig]

problem is ethanol isn;t as caustic as methanol it doesn;t really burn ones eyes or nose. i think it would hide easier which is why i brought it up.

most alky guys mix real rich as well they tend to smoke alittle more.

 

[JP374]

So with ethanol (e-85) can you get gains over race gas as to those with alky?

 

[koolguyson]

QUOTE (conig @ Sep 22 2008, 01:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11311most alky guys mix real rich as well they tend to smoke alittle more.

It isn't that methanol is mixed richer, it is just that the fuel consumption is twice that of a gas engine.

 

[conig]

QUOTE (JP374 @ Sep 22 2008, 02:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11320So with ethanol (e-85) can you get gains over race gas as to those with alky?

work the math for btu's theres alot there if its rich enough(35-40% more fuel most are real suprised) it will run alot leaner then methanol which is why flex fuel cars suck. its not as good as methanol i would run methanol if i could get it here for the 2.00 a gallon others pay, but i can; find it under 5.00 so i use e85. you can normally get some good torque gains.

 

[JP374]

QUOTE (conig @ Sep 22 2008, 08:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11344work the math for btu's theres alot there if its rich enough(35-40% more fuel most are real suprised) it will run alot leaner then methanol which is why flex fuel cars suck. its not as good as methanol i would run methanol if i could get it here for the 2.00 a gallon others pay, but i can; find it under 5.00 so i use e85. you can normally get some good torque gains.
So whats a baseline in jetting increase 5 or 10 sizes on main........

Will the e 85 work with high comp. ratios......

 

[Boston Racing]

QUOTE (JP374 @ Sep 23 2008, 12:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11351So whats a baseline in jetting increase 5 or 10 sizes on main........

Will the e 85 work with high comp. ratios......


When I cant remember which is in a can I use the ******* method. Pour a little on your hand . If it is cold and evaporates super fast it is alky

 

[phatboyz]

to answer the question about telling if your running alky,you can smell the difference it smells like playdoh if it doesnt have a fragrence mixed with it!

 

[dajogejr]

QUOTE (JP374 @ Sep 22 2008, 08:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11351So whats a baseline in jetting increase 5 or 10 sizes on main........

Will the e 85 work with high comp. ratios......

I can't speak of E85...never used it, don't know anyone that has.

For methanol...5 to 10 jets sizes won't do it.
You drill out the dump tube...also called the emulsion tube. This is not replacable on PWKs, it is replacable on Mikunis.

This tube is where the needle fits when closing or opening the throttle.

Main jets are also drilled.

Common sizes are .110 to .125...depending on motor size, porting, and other setup issues.
You can't just throw 5 to 10 sizes bigger mains in...

You also need to install a power jet as an increased source of fuel under mid to wide open throttle positions.

 

[koolguyson]

Don't forget the pilot...

 

[JP374]

I have been pondering the switch, I aam just waiting til we can run alky at the track here in pt. huron 1st i guess. If and when I do it I will probably call packard and buy one of his carbs all set up ready to roll............... How much of a diff will I notice making the switch hp wise??

 

[dajogejr]

Probably a 5 to 10% increase in power.

 

[conig]

sorry forgot about this.

pilot 40% richer. needle same main 35-40% richer. the main and pilot need the hole size enlarged 30% minimuim. so about 20% leaner then methanol your looking for 6.5-7 to 1 as a ratio.

actual hp gains no idea but i picked up 5 lengths consistently(i race almost exclusively arm drop)

heres the math i was speaking of. very cut down summed up and using a mock example motor i used.
the example motor

Gasoline is what most of our cars came setup so it's usually what we stick with. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons. The petroleum distillate fraction termed "gasoline" contains mostly saturated hydrocarbons usually with a chemical formula of C8H18. The air fuel ratio, A/F Ratio, for complete combustion is 14.7:1, stoichiometric. The A/F ratio for maximum power is approximately 12.5:1 - 12.8:1. This means that our engine at max power, 12.8:1, consumes 12.8 pounds of air for 1 pound of fuel. Gasoline has approximately 18,400 BTU/lb . Using the air flow calculator with the default inputs we get our 355 SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 44.34pounds of air and consumes 3.46 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using gasoline our engine is producing 63,664( 18,500 x 3.46) BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm

Methanol is 10,260 btu per LB and runs at 5.0-6.0 to 1 so 44.34/ 5= 8.868 lb of fuel. 8.868 x10.260=90,986 btu.

e85 is 14,021 btu per LB and runs at 7.4 to 1 so 44.34/7.4=5.95 lb of fuel. 5.95x14,021= 83,368

so basically 31% more latent heat(energy) per compression stroke for e85 and 41% more latent heat for methanol.

 

[JP374]

QUOTE (conig @ Sep 24 2008, 03:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=11581sorry forgot about this.

pilot 40% richer. needle same main 35-40% richer. the main and pilot need the hole size enlarged 30% minimuim. so about 20% leaner then methanol your looking for 6.5-7 to 1 as a ratio.

actual hp gains no idea but i picked up 5 lengths consistently(i race almost exclusively arm drop)

heres the math i was speaking of. very cut down summed up and using a mock example motor i used.
the example motor

Gasoline is what most of our cars came setup so it's usually what we stick with. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons. The petroleum distillate fraction termed "gasoline" contains mostly saturated hydrocarbons usually with a chemical formula of C8H18. The air fuel ratio, A/F Ratio, for complete combustion is 14.7:1, stoichiometric. The A/F ratio for maximum power is approximately 12.5:1 - 12.8:1. This means that our engine at max power, 12.8:1, consumes 12.8 pounds of air for 1 pound of fuel. Gasoline has approximately 18,400 BTU/lb . Using the air flow calculator with the default inputs we get our 355 SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 44.34pounds of air and consumes 3.46 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using gasoline our engine is producing 63,664( 18,500 x 3.46) BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm

Methanol is 10,260 btu per LB and runs at 5.0-6.0 to 1 so 44.34/ 5= 8.868 lb of fuel. 8.868 x10.260=90,986 btu.

e85 is 14,021 btu per LB and runs at 7.4 to 1 so 44.34/7.4=5.95 lb of fuel. 5.95x14,021= 83,368

so basically 31% more latent heat(energy) per compression stroke for e85 and 41% more latent heat for methanol.



YOU LOST ME AT SORRY ABOUT THIS.................... LOL WOW Thats alot of info I understand that its burns hotter than fuel

 

[camatv]

haavve you had to use the alky spec oils with the e85 or have there been enough fuel mixed in to use normal oils..


oh and also 3 gallons of pump gas and 2 gallons of alky makes a nice cheap race fuel.. n you HAVE to re jet for it tho.. hehe