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I would assume that unlike the factory setup, they are using an identical cylinder for the left and right side. The billet cases would be spaced enough to accomodate. That's just my opinion and it may not be worth .02. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
Pretty sure Nate is using two Puma cylinders, not two Cougars..... but Nate will have to clarify (or BoDidly.....)
 

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That is correct. It uses 2 honda trx250r cylinders. It is spaced 145mm on center (Cougar is only 120mm). It is true that there are some design sumularities in the Puma, DMX, and Cougar cylinders. But the Puma is the "honda" cylinder.
We dynoed one of the cylinders on a stock(ish) 250r bottom end. And that cylinder would work on the left or the right side of the twin. We did have some deck height/rod length issues that have been resolved by a different height pair of Puma cylinders that will still work on the stock 250r bottom end with another rod selection. The new cylinders are on there way to plaiting soon...
 

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i would like to get my hands on billet cases that has a Honda bolt pattern 4 my asphalt bike i would like to try a 70mm stroke 95mm twin with 2 saber cylinders slapped on top i know they make a Caracalla or what ever it is but i like the rod ratio of the 70mm stroke with a 146.5 rod hmmmmmm keep us posted more torque i like to know how that wide of spacing 145mm performs
 

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I've seen and held one and will say its the biggest 2 stroke cyl I've ever seen.its the size of a pumpkin.lol
 

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I wish Mattoon would build a set of billet cases for the 250R. It would be nice to have a set that could be trenched and made to accept around an 80mm stroke. They could also be made to accomodate a CR500 tranny with very little modification. How nice would it be to have a big 600cc+ single on a fairly lightweight engine?
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 ·
Now we're talking....


I thought Calvin was possibly working on getting Mattoon to build a billet single that used a Banshee tranny.... Don't know if that's happening or not...

Would the CR500 tranny have any advantages over the Banshee?


Sure would be neat to be able to bolt in a Large cc single into the 250R....
 

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I talked to mattoon about a month ago on billet 250R cases since honda is discontinuing the OEM cases, and he said around $2000 for a set....
 

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QUOTE (bubba297 @ Jul 16 2009, 08:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=50396I wish Mattoon would build a set of billet cases for the 250R. It would be nice to have a set that could be trenched and made to accept around an 80mm stroke. They could also be made to accomodate a CR500 tranny with very little modification. How nice would it be to have a big 600cc+ single on a fairly lightweight engine?im with you on that bubba and there r some in the works . the saber i feel r at its peek and thats the fastest single 2 strokes i know of and them 4 pokes r getting over 1000cc and geting close lol .with billet cases i believe there could be some serious times lade down from a single heck i only run 70mm stroke and the r's trans is on the raged edge at 100+ hp when the correct tire to get the power to the ground is used even with good gears. as of now the only thing i think would help the big singles in its current config is deferent gear ratios its all wrong 4 the way the big single puts the power to the ground so cases will solve all these probs i think and the option to go bigger
 

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QUOTE (carolina shaker @ Jul 19 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=50642im with you on that bubba and there r some in the works . the saber i feel r at its peek and thats the fastest single 2 strokes i know of and them 4 pokes r getting over 1000cc and geting close lol .with billet cases i believe there could be some serious times lade down from a single heck i only run 70mm stroke and the r's trans is on the raged edge at 100+ hp when the correct tire to get the power to the ground is used even with good gears. as of now the only thing i think would help the big singles in its current config is deferent gear ratios its all wrong 4 the way the big single puts the power to the ground so cases will solve all these probs i think and the option to go bigger

Blasterman, who did you get your info from on Honda discontinuing 250r case halves? I went out 5 years ago when it was claimed they were going to quit making them and you can go down to your local Honda shop and order a set now. I remember one time trying to order red 88 stock plastic and one time I went to my local honda shop and they said it was discontinued, 6 months later I asked the same question and Honda made a run of red plastic. They go in to a parts locator and verify there is product. I just don't believe they will quit making them. The bike is just to popular. They will make a run when there is enough orders for them.
 

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the r's are a dieing bread, there is alot of stuff honda has quit making
 

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With the resurgence of the Honda 250R motors I feel it's hard to believe that they would discontinue them. I have bought 2 new sets in the last 3 years myself. I know a lot of you guys put together would make up many more sets. With those kind of numbers they wouldnt do it I dont think.


On another note, I searched the internet for 2 hours trying to find a way to e-mail corporate Honda in Japan. I was going to tell them not to quit making parts, but I couldnt get anywhere with it. If someone else has info let me know. We'll start a petition or something. Hell if I had an address to someone who gives a damn then I would type a nice professional letter. What if Honda didnt know about the new cylinders that are manufactured?
 

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Also, a few months ago I tried to order a seat latch part for my wife's rider bike and it came up NLA. I was talking to one of the nice people at Service Honda, and he told me that when Mr Honda himself was alive he believed in keeping all the parts for the machines they had built. Once he had passed away then corporate didnt see it worth the time or money to continue that.

So quality and service after the sale is what made Honda what it is today. Why go and screw it up???
 

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QUOTE (bubba297 @ Jul 23 2009, 09:00 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=50953Also, a few months ago I tried to order a seat latch part for my wife's rider bike and it came up NLA. I was talking to one of the nice people at Service Honda, and he told me that when Mr Honda himself was alive he believed in keeping all the parts for the machines they had built. Once he had passed away then corporate didnt see it worth the time or money to continue that.

So quality and service after the sale is what made Honda what it is today. Why go and screw it up???bubba i can tell you whats going on with them first hand and it isn't good , it's worse than you think. i would say in 5 years that Honda will be like any cheep made atv and there quality control is on the decline . and trust me old part,s will be the thing of the past
 

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i talked to my parts manager for my honda hook up, he said we need to talk to the north american honda powersports division. He said he would get me the director's number. My honda dealer has told me twice now that ESR is sitting on over 150,000 dollars worth of NOS honda parts. They cleared out a warehouse full of 250R products. Ive never been able to get tom or harry to say that, but this isnt the first rumor I have heard about this event.
 

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Maybe I should start a new thread, but it's seems to be time to revisit the Puma topic.

Since the first Puma's were build,(seems like [Dan,Blasterman88], and Jordan[RowanRacing]would have been the first of all the Puma's to be built)there have been a number of them hit the drums, and the sand across the globe.

In California, there have been a number of Puma's to hit the hills, yet few that hit the front page of ATVDRAGRACERS threads because of who all they have outrun. Of course, the "I had the fastest bike at the hill this weekend" chatter is always spoken. But the third party observers have not been telling the "big" stories yet.

Let me say here and now that I am still more impressed with the Puma cylinder than any 250r cylinder. I am convinced that it is the most impressive to date. But there are some challenges to the Puma taking the Honda world by storm: #1. is that there are some slow ones out there. And #2. is bad press.

Slow Pumas:

The 431 Puma's are presently capable of around 100hp, with a nice torque curve, that can get them down into the 3s, even on challenging tracks. But there are many Puma's presently making in the upper 60hp range with some of the setups that we have observed. Very sad. But it's a fact, none the less. Such motors are often not the fault of any professional engine builder, instead, they are the result of a buy-and-bolt setup based on a dream, and internet misinformation. We have also seen a few that were from an otherwise reputable builder, that had most of the neccesary parts, but because of a missing link or two, there were nearly as bad. 30hp off the mark, is too far. And presents an ugly picture when they are lined up beside some old stock cylinder banshee that has been dialed for 10 years, and it embarrasses the 'ol Honda rider.


Some of those setups are only as far off of the mark as they are because the owner "thought" they should try something other than what the builder suggested. Fact remains such poor running Puma's have terribly misrepresented the potential of the Pumas.

Bad Press:

The Puma comes on the scene as a mid sized cylinder. The huge 500+cc Sabre had broken the size and "WOW" factor limits long before the Puma existed. So the Puma is not "biggest" or even "Bigger." No. In fact it's smaller. You can actually kick start it. lol

The Sabre's suffered from the bad rap of being too expensive, and hard to find the setup for, but have outlived the bad name and are likely more popular now than ever, Much to the credit of Niel S., Matt Shearer, and Dennis Packard, an others that have great running Sabres, the Sabre still reigns supreme as the King of Honda's. The new, bigger-still Liger will have to overtake it's reputation.

So the Puma has to be compared to the 7+year track record of the Sabre. And because of the Sabre's dominance over the ProX setups, the fact that the Puma is substantially more powerful that the fastest ProX no longer gets any applause, or recognition. Will anyone care that a 409, or a 431 Puma is half-hilling the fastest ProX? Or running 2-3 tenths faster at the track? No. They will have to match the fastest Sabres to matter. And the fact that there are some really messed up Pumas out there nearly seals there fate.

But despite all this, I am still convinced that the Puma is where it's at.
Every Puma that we have dynoed that made power, proved the dyno was no fluke at the track or the dunes. The cost of the Puma is not cheap simply because it makes too much power for the cheap stuff to handle it. But it is still more affordable than a Sabre. Yet the power is already getting very very close. And our most recent testing leads us to believe that we are just scratching the surface of the Puma's potential.

Just for fun, glance at the Dyno chart below 510 sabre, 409 "poorboy" Puma, and a full-tilt prox 5mm 370. The Sabre, and Puma are alky dune race setups, the prox is the fastest that we know of. 510sabre409puma370prox.JPG
 

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Also Nate, you know the tuning abilities of a lot of people fall way short for a motor capable of running low 4's or faster. If you can't efficiently apply more HP then it doesnt do you any good either.
 

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That's right. But more usable power is always faster. Sure, someone can mess them up, but a well setup puma could be puking fuel, or boiling over hot and still likely outrun the fastest ProXs on the planet.
 
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